...even though I hate tomatoes. So I am so glad there are people in this country who are willing to pick those tomatoes for a low wage so I can get ketchup cheap.
So why is everyone btiching about the Mexicans and their displays of solidarity?
God forbid a group of people come to the country to escape poor conditions, take low paying jobs and still have pride in where they came from. Wait, thats just about everybody. Ellis island simply moved southwest.
Why are we complaining about jobs we dont want? Tax burden is what I hear the most. They are a drain on our resources. So hand them out some Tax IDs and tax the shit out of them just like everybody else. Of course, then you have to pay them a wage and that might drive the price of ketchup up. But if they are being taxed and society in general is compensated for their presence, I will pay the extra dollar for my Hunt's. Mmmm Hunt's.
"Speak English" they say. Well I admit that is a little annoying, but its not all that surprising that they cant. Especially if they are here illegally. You worry about getting deported too much to go to classes. You dont sneak into a movie and then order the staff around. It seems to be an issue of time. This new generation of Hispanics born to recent arrivals are getting the education needed, though not to the level they will need to easily rise above their current situation. Its the same as 100 yrs ago when all of Europe seemed to show up at our door. They came in, built their little towns (Little Italy, Chinatown) and communicated in the language they knew. Some had a few words of broken English, but they got along and they still had their pride. And their flags.
I know, I'm too liberal. But I feel that you should be able to live wherever you want, as long as the resources can support you and you are willing to work. We all still have our pride (as we damn well should). God gave me a pair of hands. I can wave two flags at once.
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
9 comments:
"Why are we complaining about jobs we don't want"
How about putting those on the gravy train to work? Those able body welfare recipients have to do what? Oh yes, collect a check! It seems to me that this would create the ole supply and demand dynamic; more jobs to the welfare recipient less for the "illegals". Less jobs for the illegals the less incentive they have to come...illegally.
"Especially if they are here illegally"
No one has an issue with that statement in itself? "Illegal" that is? Why don't we turn a blind eye to rapist and murderers? Don't murders serve a purpose? Aren't they eliminating some of the bottom feeders? OK, so occasionally they pop a law abiding citizen, the cost of doing business! More ketchup for you! I can hear it now; That's ridiculous comparing murder to immigrants! Is it? They both are breaking the law. So change the law! Until then "illegal" should have a more serious meaning.
"Speak English" & "Pride"
Prompts oxymorons to pop up:
Speak and English
Pride and American
Free and this country
What happened to "while in Rome..."? Must have died with the Roman Empire.
As to American pride, does that exist anymore? Some would say no as it is politically incorrect to display any type of pride. That leads to racism, uncaring, selfishness and a whole list of BAD things not fashonable anymore. Pride has become a joke.
"and their flags"
You OK with the Confederate flag? Back to "pride" - is it wrong to be proud of that flag? The PCs say you would be horrible to have pride in such a symbol! Maybe to some that flag represents something different than a racial connection? No way, no one has that right, if so they should be chastised, they don't have THAT right.
Keep them coming in! Keep them making ketchup and making it cheap! At what cost later? I think the price will be much more disastrous down the road..but we are a here and now kind of society, aren't we? So keep that cheap ketchup pouring, my fries are getting cold!
Dear Commentor #1:
Could you please elaborate on the cost you feel our country would have to pay later? It may help me understand your point of view a bit better.
"I know, I'm too liberal. But I feel that you should be able to live wherever you want, as long as the resources can support you and you are willing to work."
Dude, you ain't liberal. And I agree, get the stamp collectors outa here- we don't have the resources and they aren't willing to work.
As far as Mexicans, they are willing to work, but we don't have the resources. That may be one of the "costs we will pay later" that was described above. You can only dole out free medicine for so long before someone has to pay for it all. But that is another issue.
-Dude
I feel like no one gets free medicine, including, but not limited to, Mexicans.
I will say, though, that Welfare recipients can be supported at the lifestyle to which they have become accustomed at a greatly reduced price in Mexico.
If we ship out those draining our resources and tax those actually working here, then this could become a money-making proposition!
"Dear Commentor #1:
Could you please elaborate on the cost you feel our country would have to pay later? It may help me understand your point of view a bit better."
Balance. At some point this will tilt the (fragile) balance of our economy which will perpetuate the erosion of the middle class. We will move closer to the "haves" and "have nots", no middle ground.
At present "we" are scratching our heads as to find a way to pay SS to our aging population. Now throw in a wave of illegals, and then wave after wave, why would anyone think this will stop if it's working fine in the immigrants eyes and those that say what's the big deal? Sooner or later "we" will begin to pay to help feed and medicate these waves and who will pay for that? "We" will, the USA, you know the same country unable to solve our hunger, education, SS and homeless issues!
Remember another society, empire, that fell because of the elimination of the middle class? We're pretty arrogant if we think "we" can't travel down the same road.....but after all, don't they all lead to Rome?
In response to your comment, Post-person #1, I have to say that SS was never meant to last this long. It was a quick fix that people came to expect from the government as their God-given right. At this point, SS is in need of desperate restructuring or it will do what it was made to do; self termintate. And if you are going to completely retool the program, you have to take into account any increase in the taxpaying population, regardless of their ethnicity. Illegals dont get SS. Taxpayers get it when they pay into it. At present, I believe far more comes out as goes in. That has nothing to do with those here without Green Card. Please help me understand how these tie in to each other.
A lot of the response to the Ketchup Question seems to focus on illegals taking our taxpayer dollars. Some reference has been made in recent debate, both online and in person, to the burden caused by illegal immigrants using public money for healthcare and translation services in the judicial system.
First, no one has been able to show statistically that the burden proximately caused by illegal immigrants is significant.
Secondly, this burden is no different than the burden shouldered by taxpayers PROXIMATELY caused by those receiving benefits from other social programming. Those benefits included: social security/disability, WIC and TennCare. The only noticable difference is that one group, citizens, were almost certainly provided with better access to education and healthcare during the formative years, than the other group, illegal immigrants. Thus the citizens should be better positioned to free themselves from public aid. In fact, if citizen recipients were willing to accept many of the positions held by immigrants, illegal and otherwise, perhaps this burden would be diminished.
(Please note, I'm not saying every American has access to the Mayo Clinic and Harvard. I am saying that the crappiest county hospital and inner city public school are leaps ahead of comparable situations in the home countries of our most sizeable immigrant groups: Mexico, China, Haiti, Cuba, etc.)
Thirdly: Removing these concerns from the argument leaves one of population control. It seems as though there is concern that by increasing the pool of lower middle class, and lower class populations, the middle class will dissipate into poverty.
Why is this concern limited to illegal immigrants?
Immediately, this is crazy because "illegal" immigrants are eligible for programs requiring a social security number, as ozymandias pointed out.
Thus the thinning of taxpayer benefits must be focused on increasing the populations of citizens and legal permanent residents in the lower middle class and lower class pools.
It sounds as though the argument posed by commenter's above is: we must control the population of poor people to protect our middle class status.
I believe this argument was posed a few years back when somebody had the idea of either forcing or rewarding sterilization for welfare recipients.
If I recall, that idea was popularly defeated before the Supreme Court deemed it to be a violation of personal freedom.
If that argument has been defeated, then you're left with a sense of self-righteous indignation, with your fist in air, waving the others out, because, by God, you were here first.
You don't want to compete with any more people than you have to for the jobs you really didn't want to begin with.
I mean they don't really fit in anyway, do they--with there foreign language that "Americans" don't understand. (Does anyone remember the Ebonics fiasco a few years back? Seems like there are some similarities there.)
And you were here first, weren't you? (How many third and fourth generation African-Americans, Asian-Americans, Native Americans, Polish-Americans, Jewish-Americans, and Russian-Americans are citizens now because their ancestors wanted the opportunity to work hard and support their families.)
And we get to say who comes and goes!! Yeah! (For those in support of this idea, please refer to the myriad of material available re: women's rights to own property, vote, work at a rate equal to that of her male counterparts, Civil Rights of the 1950's 1960's, Jim Crow Laws, and the Master's that is still being held at a gender and racially exclusive club.)
At the end of the day, we should first consider the intense desire of those foreign to this land a compliment. We're really not as bad as the French say we are, and nobody's dying to get into Uzbekhistan like their dying to get into southern California.
Then realize that the inherent properties of economics will ultimately eliminate this problem. If there is no demand, supply will dwindle. If there is no supply, demand will eventually dwindle.
Two possible solutions exist:
1. Create a true economic playing field. Eliminate or diminish social programming for true competition to the immigrant population that seeks to expand our lower class. That means everyone who's on disability for "anxiety" but sells crystal meth on the side, must compete with an immigrant for a job.
Be prepared to pay for this solution. One job and two+ competitors means that someone will work and someone will have to do something else: get educated, get training, or move to a country where his or her current level of motivation and ignorance are accepted on the job site. Indonesia and Mexico are such locations. It's true that you'll make less, but you can also live on much less.
2. Pay the premium required to insure that your product comes from a company complying your idea of an ideal society. Without immigrant labor, the work force is going to dwindle. That means fewer American products will be available for consumer purchase. So you get to pay $5 per pound for potatoes and apples at the store.
Keep in mind that price goes up at the restaurant you frequent because their profit margins are minimal: they've had to increase wages to hire enough employees AND the food price has skyrocketed.
It's also too pricey for the lower middle classes and lower classes to afford. Their only option is to purchase imported food, but imported food is unregulated. That means that veggies are planted in the middle of human waste pools because it's the only fertilizer they can afford. Next thing you know, poor folks are joining those who ate green onions at O'Charleys in 2003 in line up at the health department to get their Hepatitis A shot.
Banning immigration is no option at all. Could someone please post an option? If you disagree with Ozy's idea about the tax id's, then find some thing else. Or be prepared to forego human rights and place land mines at the borders.
"First, no one has been able to show statistically that the burden proximately caused by illegal immigrants is significant."
Ouch. Google “cost of illegal immigrants.” First of 28.3 million hits, http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalrelease.html provides such statistics.
I won't take time to do research as to how they gather info or whether it is valid as that may be done by anyone interested. There is a ton of data to show the costs of illegal immigrants and whether such costs are significant.
"Secondly, this burden is no different than the burden shouldered by taxpayers PROXIMATELY caused by those receiving benefits from other social programming."
If this were true, I still don't think it is a good argument. Are you suggesting that b/c you already pay private school for your kid, you should have no problem shouldering private school costs for my kid b/c the costs are similar?
In making your third point, you say "Immediately, this is crazy because 'illegal' immigrants are (not) eligible for programs requiring a social security number, as ozymandias pointed out."
That is true, however, I am not certain that all money paid into SS is pooled exclusively for SS expenditures. Kind of like, "all lotto money goes to schools." When the govm't is short on money, it "borrows" it from other programs.
I do not suggest rounding up illegals and busing them home. That would be beyond reason. Better borders is possible, although expensive, but not beyond reason. Border however is not just an immigration issue, but also a security issue.
You called for additional options. I like your first, but would take it a step farther. No driver's licenses or state ID without a valid SS. No medical services outside of emergencies or any other free services w/out a valid ID (physical presentation is of course not necessary, these things can be looked up). Also, steep fines for individuals hiring illegals. With no jobs or welfare available, illegals won't have much motivation to stay.
As for your second suggestion, I really am not sure that illegals keep costs of food products down. “The definitive study on this subject is the University of Iowa's ‘How Much Is That Tomato?’ The study concludes that 'since labor is such a small component of the end-price of agricultural products (which includes price to the growers, transportation costs, processing /storage costs, grocers' profit, etc.), using minimum wage workers instead of illegal aliens would increase prices of agricultural products by approximately 3 percent in the summer and 4 percent in the winter ... (hardly the making of $20 bottles of ketchup).” - Kathy McKee, The Sonoran News.
Can people throw a tag at the end of posts so we can keep things straight?
-Dude
Here Here Ozy!
--
Stacie
Post a Comment